39
Sun, 16 April 2006
Wolfgang, I'm sending this to you personally... to support you, not to denigrate others or the institutions they work for.
I do not have the same amount of sitting time as you do, but I had a similar path in some respects, and within minutes of first practicing Vipassana had a powerful experience, which still reverberates years later. Also like you, I had some unpleasant experience, so I did not return, but tried to keep my practice going on my own, which has been difficult.
As far as "belief" in Goenka is concerned, the very thought of that is anti-Vipassana. What I found through practice is an inner sense that I can trust, from knowing how much water to put in the rice pan to knowing how to be someplace at the right time, to knowing when to speak and when not. The idea of Vipassana for me is that no books, no church, no liturgy, no spoken words are needed, one connects with a source (Dhamma) and one has a flow of correctness inside that never fails.
The trick is to keep the connection open and flowing, not constricted by intellectual constructions, and that's where a 10-day is handy, the energy there is strong and one can reconnect more easily, just like a few hard breaths help you find your breath again when doing Anapana. So perhaps the answer was to not damn the whole thing because of the defects. We have a saying in this country, which is often misused by politicians trying to explain laziness or corruption: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
If you want to do a 10-day you might look into the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts, but they do charge for their classes. Or look at non-center courses, there are several in the US and Canada, so probably Europe as well.
I cannot judge the confrontation with the teacher as well as you can. It would have never occurred to me to confront the teacher, because I went there for my own purposes and wasn't concerned with what they believed. I have had issues with Goenka's people, but not so extreme. If you are interested in the details, I can share them with you. Also, the book about Dipa Ma might be useful to you and your practice; she had a practical approach to Vipassana and the anecdotes in the book have been useful to me. Best wishes
Links: - 'Great Western Vehicle: Goenka' and 'Vipassana Cult'. - I'm not saying I agree, just pointing to them. I like Goenka - have nothing against him, but I also am not well-read.
40
Mon, 17 Apr 2006
thanks for your mail with many hints. If you read the new version of my text - you will understand me much better and know: I am such a Goenka Enthusiastic who would never condemn it. And, yes - I have to check my perfectionism. But you don't have to be concerned about where I could practice now - not without reason I am so glad about this path and even use the Pali word for gladness in my email address.
You will also know how it came to my confrontation. Well - that was how you worded it - for me it was more the exchange of opinions, where one usually can recognize how far one went in Dhamma: By one's ability to be able to listen and accommodate and contribute to different views without attacking the other personally. And sometimes - by becoming attacked - there might be something growing out of it which in the end becomes even more than it was intended for.
The links you send I read. - Well, what to say. They are mostly from the 90 percent of first time students, who never come back. And I do not agree with their way of expression - they are just very good example in not being constructive at all - without wanting to blame them for. For their positions are so understandable to me. For me the problem lies more in lack of wisdom - not differentiating between the monks and the laymen's path - and therefore: Being too demanding and becoming too entrenched in ones own style. And yes, that would be Goenkaji's responsibility he was never able to get up to. As so many others who teach what helped them the most and can't imagine any other ways of approach.
Of course I am very interested in the issues you had with Goenka-bums. It's now one of my intentions to create a place where meditators can talk more skillfully about what concerned them without personally attacking. So that those who might have done wrongly can listen to it without having right away the feeling to have to justify themselves and to defense their very core. This is very difficult once you read how much I, myself, have to criticize. All the best, in Dhamma
41
Tue, 18 Apr 2006
I read your text, not all the attributions, but what you wrote. And I read through the pamphlet at the end, very interesting - liked the Asimov article.
My situation with the Goenksters was kind of lightweight by comparison to yours. I'm no philosophy scholar. I'm a reader, but mostly for fun. The sutras put me to sleep quickly, they remind me of what Mark Twain said about: The 'Book of Mormon'... "chloroform in print". I do get Pariyatti's "Word's of the Buddha" in my email every day, and once a month I go through them and see if there are any new ones.
I really do not understand why all the words and definitions and such are needed when one can just "be" and "do". If one is pure, what one is and does will be pure. I'm not interested in striving, because I can't really say that anyone else is equipped to judge what I should do better than I am. For this same reason I think modern medicine is crazy.
Also, the "now" is the only time for right action, the important thing is to be here now. I like learning from others, but not from one other. I'm a shopper. So I liked Goenka's method because - from my perspective - he looked at Buddhism like a businessman, hard and straight. What works and what doesn't? Let's cut that part out, it's silly - and let's accentuate what works.
And, while he was doing this sorting, he invented Heavy Metal. I could not listen to his chanting without being tempted to play air guitar. That's where they all got their chops. Seriously, listen to his chants and substitute an overdriven guitar. Wes Nisker wrote a book about the cultural changes in the 50's and 60's, and he took a course directly from Goenka in the 60's. Surely many musicians were doing the same thing.
Anyway, I liked his method and had good results, but then there was this problem: Which came in the form of a gay man from NYC, who became interested in me. When I arrived at the center I had been celibate for 9 years, nearly 10, because I have severe psoriasis. But it's not on my face or other normally visible areas. And when I was active I was hetero, without any interest in any other way of porking.
So I'm sitting there on orientation night, and he comes up and asks for my room number. I thought it was odd, but remembered that I had seen double-occupancy rooms when moving in. I told him that I had a single room. He said: "Well! I was just as-king", and huffed off. I forgot about him in seconds, I was there to do serious work and went back to paying close attention to how things worked.
Then he started following me around during breaks. I am most comfortable in nature, so I would walk down to the creek and hang out, listening to the wind and water, watching for wildlife, communing. I'd look up, and there he was, out in the rain, sitting up on the embankment above me.
I couldn't talk now, no way to tell him ...off, so I'd go elsewhere. So would he. I would be eating and he would be staring at me from another table. Once he tried to sit across from me and I got right up and he did too, blushing, and we both went to different tables. I would come out of the meditation cells (I went early and during breaks) and his sandals would be on top of mine.
So I went to the manager, and he told me I was probably imagining things. I should have left, because the anxiety I felt was derailing my practice and pissing me off. Our rooms had only curtains for doors, so I started carrying any personal documents with me in my trousers (wore the same pair of pants for the 10 days, worn pair of camo BDU's) and hiding other things as best I could.
I had to take full changes to the showers, because he would brush his teeth at the end sink and wait to watch me to step out of the shower. I considered stepping out shirtless, so he could see the huge red scaly patches, but decided it would disturb others who were not involved in this problem.
I went again to the manager, and he said there was nothing he could do unless he personally observed the issue, but he refused to eat with me in the cafeteria or go with me to the creek for break. So it came down to breaking my silence, staying, or leaving. I felt absolutely betrayed by the Sangha with this behavior.
The manager's job was to protect me (or at least referee) from this kind of crap, that's why the women were on the other side of the fence. There was an issue reported somewhere about a gay woman being denied application to a 30-day, but I read that Goenka overturned that ruling.
So I haven't gone back, don't want to be in that helpless position again. If I do go back and something similar happens I'll probably scare the infidel with a sharp noise, ala Zen master. Although I'm certainly not one - it often does work. So my take on Goenka's people is that they are very mixed in their skill levels, and that not nearly all of them possess wisdom.
This is very much like any corporate structure, and surely Goenka built the organization like he would a business. I watched his people struggle with other things when the answer was immediately apparent to me, can't give you any examples. They try, they really do, but they aren't fully realized themselves, this is the price for a corporate structure with mostly volunteer help.
Even Ford and GM are in deep trouble right now, with highly-paid CEO's, because they cannot see clearly. Their inability to discern a real issue from an imagined one is what showed me the level of wisdom I was dealing with. And yes, that guy did try to talk to me the minute we were allowed to speak again. I kept silent with him, which was better than screaming. So much for the clumsy Metta practice at the end...
From the reading I've done, I'd say that Goenka's method is optimized towards making new students interested in the practice, and the way to do that is through immediate results. So it's optimized towards something happening quickly, and the peril is that the method might be too advanced for some students and they lose it. One woman in that group screamed for days. Canon fodder?...&^)
This also means that it is inappropriate for advanced students, because it's an edited practice, focused on initial interest and not on deep readings of the teachings. The healthiest postings I've read are from people who used it as a first step, then went on to other things. All of them wrote that they were glad it was there, because it got them interested and compelled them to go forward. But they all used something else to continue their path.
That strategy makes the most sense to me, just using his centers as a place to recharge once a year, not as a place to lean upon for guidance or knowledge. It's sort of a "fast-food" Buddhism; it fills you up, but a steady diet could kill you....&^) One poster apparently registers under a different name every time, to keep them from tracking him.
And meanwhile, the most important part cannot be taken away, which is the easy-to-follow method, which works amazingly well for something stripped down, like an old hot-rod without fenders that can disappear over the horizon in a blink.
One place for more inquiry and discussion is this website, here's a link to a 4-page forum entry on - 'Goenka Vipassana Meditation'. - You could sign up and post concerns there, although I did notice that they ban the very mention of four practices (which I then googled and read about).
Also, here's a link to the book I mentioned yesterday, I found it helpful and inspiring - 'Dipa Ma: The Life and Legacy of a Buddhist Master'. - It's got another angle on Vipassana, you might find it useful even though it's simply written. Meanwhile keep going, no looking back...
42
Mon, 18 Apr 2006
thanks again for your sharing. Nowadays I am similar in experiencing the Suttas like sleeping pills. But they did give me a much wider understanding - where Goenkaji's teachers just confused by contradicting themselves. So for a clarification of the context from which this practice is better understood - than through Goenka's simplifications - they are the best there is.
But I am - like you - not really a scholar. I mostly read anthologies to avoid the repetitions. Although during my time in the forest-monastery in Burma it definitely was like that - the Buddha drove his points home as if he were speaking to me - by reading only one Sutta a day. Things are changing.
You are right that you are the judge of what is best for you. But in a huge organization like Goenka's such will lead only to dissent and fencing off - as in my case. In organizations such guidelines - as there are in the Pali - are very valuable in settling issues under consideration of each ones point of view - and quite democratically.
Of course, I learn what is helping me the most at any given time of any other. But I have to admit, that I readily call my self a Buddhist, because none other than the Buddha made it so clear that ULTIMATE TRUTH ('paramattha sacca' - I search this word in the Pali Sutta and could find it only ones with the following understanding:) - people only claim for their own aggrandizement and to beat others in arguments.
As a Buddhist I can practice peacefully without getting involved in telling others what would be best for them - more or less telling: "You are too stupid to know yourself". What is just the opposite in helping the other to find strength in him to be able to depend on his own experience alone. And sadly, supporting in this way only dependence.
You are right that Goenkaji did cut out and kept what was most useful for his own practice. The problem: Most people are different from Goenka. That still would not make much of a problem - everyone can just leave after having given it a serious try. The problem starts when one gives it a serious try and one hasn't found it fitting, one has been offended as a 'weak-minded person' for 10 days. And that is for no good - especially with the vulnerability - part and parcel of such retreats. Certainly it is not good in finding confidence in ones own experience of what's wholesome and what isn't.
Now some words to your disappointment with 'Goenksters' - how it just appears to me after reading your account in comparison to my experience: What really struck me first was that in one year of Goenka retreats I never had such an experience! - Which on top of it, caused you never to come back.
Right after my first course I did a retreat with Christopher Titmus and other western teachers in the Thai Temple in Bodhgaya. Because I thought: Goenka wants you to decide which tradition to follow to admit you to his advanced courses. And because I rightly assumed that in those advanced courses he would be more reasonable - I didn't want to delay that any further without having at least tried one other Vipassana tradition.
After Christopher's retreat, which I really appreciated, I knew Goenka's tradition would be the tradition to stick with. The biggest difference for me was: Men and Women (about 130 in total) were sitting in a very small hall all mixed up. But contrary to Goenkaji's retreats (mainly after that) I felt no sexual desire at all!
I, like you, lived quite similar long times without any sexual relation, although I really appreciate woman and I call more of them closer friends than men - but sex compared to friendship just doesn't have an importance in my life. Except my times in Goenka-retreat. This artificial separation between men and women - in the Indian context certainly very appropriate - just gave me a delirious desire for sex. God thanks - that desire always ended together with the retreats.
But in Christopher's retreat most of the time just Metta flowed - certainly for its relaxed atmosphere - as it did in Goenka's retreat only for short moments. For other practitioners this is just the opposite: They feel more desirous without separation. So, in my eyes, there is no easy solution to this question about separation. Contrary to you I tend to think - to lift this contradiction of separating hetero and not gays - is to abolish it, at least in the west. Many would probably disagree with me. But to be honest, this is just not an important issue to me at all.
The important thing for me was to gain access of a part of my underworld which was always lurking there, influencing unconsciously and always ready to attack (given the circumstances trigger it). Call it genes, demons, kamma or asavas - I don't care - put to become familiar with them.
Therefore, I see your experience from this standpoint: You didn't even mentioned this anger of yours as a demon, you only saw some other do such wrong. Beside that, so many women becoming harassed not only during 10-days, and not only with polite expression of silent interest. This guy was just facing his demon on that retreat, and he was not skilled at that as you were. Probably a first time student too.
But how did he react after you ignored him on day 10? - Probably he left his demon at that retreat - as most others do - and didn't continue to stalk you in your daily life. Maybe he never came back to a retreat like you, because he found the demons - that arise in a Goenka retreat - are too overwhelming. There are so many reasons to become angry or desirous at Goenka's retreats. Especially, because this meditation technique does something deliberately to unleash such demons to be able to become familiar with them. This is its very aim.
You, and that is very understandable, seem to be concerned about how to remove your triggers. And thereby only solidify triggers for others: Like me, just as an example, where the separation of sexes causes my demons of sexual desire to arise. Contrary to you, I don't want to make Goenka courses become more restrictive than they already are.
But I am pretty sure you were right in your decision never to come back to this tradition. Because I can promise you from my own experience, with every course - certainly equanimity gets stronger - but the demons as well - unbelievable so - too.
You write: Don't look back. For me one thing became very clear out of what ever was happening to me in Goenka-retreats: Well, that's me. - Meaning the part which was suffering, and there one can really learn to let go, forgive oneself and be with it, however terrible it is - in the present moment.
Wishing you the best on your path, in Dhamma
43
Tue, 2 May 2006
Wolfgang, thanks for all that. I read it carefully and am considering it all (ruminating?). I'm at a place where it's difficult to write back, not much time or energy left at the end of the day, and a shared connection. Will try to do so later.
Also been looking at going back for a 10-day, could use a refill of clarity, or a draining of mud, whichever it is. I'm only a couple of hours from the one in Mass. Will write more sometime ...
44
Wed, 3 May 2006
I'm glad to hear from you. When I wrote my last email I felt quite ambiguous: On one side it brought it to the point what I wanted to say - on the other side it could have easily been misunderstood (- as if I would know it somehow better). And that, after showing your kindness in your letter by supporting me.
I just trusted my gut feeling - that you could distinguish very well what could have been only a speculation on my side - and which part of my letter would resonate with that - which is really true for yourself. Good to hear, you did. Please take your time to write back. How lucky you are to live so close to Massachusetts. Greetings
45
Tue, 30 May 2006
Ya know, maybe it's time to recognize that the people who run the centers aren't worth arguing with, it's like trying to argue with any other zealot/robot/tron/tool. Their minds make good walls for playing handball, but that's about it. And I don't think you feel secure about your role in what happened, otherwise you wouldn't be asking for other's opinions about it.
I still have doubt about going back myself, and still think that the rules need to be enforced on men and women and gays alike. I really do not feel that I invited that *** in any way, I was just sitting there as inside as I could be, just tried to be too "nice", or indirect with him, rather than punching him or reporting him then and there. I'm learning that I cannot assume that others are as serious or enlightened as I am. And that I need to be pro active about protecting myself, since subtle answers often aren't enough for uncultivated minds.
The important thing is not the retreat. The whole point, far as I can see, is to develop and nourish an internal guidance system, cultivating a relationship with - and trust in - the quiet internal guidance that exists in all of us, but is often ignored in the bustle and flow of modern life.
The idea is to "take it out in traffic" as a friend of mine says, to use it in the real world. One of the first things I used it for was to measure water for rice. Good (still/unstimulated) mind, good rice. Scattered/angry/agitated mind, rice needs help, more or less water. When I first got out I made good rice every time for a while, now I've been traveling so so long it's been months since I made rice. If it was good rice now it would be luck, most likely.
So I'm thinking about going back because I need to restart my practice. I'm doing other things, one that's interesting is a mindful yoga-influenced stretching, based on what the body wants to do, and not the brain. Often takes some time to get down to that layer, but it's worth it. I always feel refreshed and centered afterwards, and I can do it anywhere. No one taught me, it just started to happen one day and I went with it, its blissful and freeing, but not as intense and self-changing as a retreat.
But the ability to sit is gone, couldn't hold two seconds right now. Anyway, if you really want to go back, use another name to register, saw that others on the forums do that to get back in. And go there for yourself, not someone else. As Sakyamuni said, tend your own sheep. I'm starting to really appreciate that concept in my own life.
46
Sat, 3 Jun 2006
I consider everyone worth to enter in an exchange of opinion. And if you don't want to become a wall for playing handball yourself - it is always better to ask. Everyone experiences his life out of his particular valid perspective. And to be only interested in one's own would come dangerously close to dogma. Real life never is so solid. - But there is a time for everything - and yours might just be to tend your own sheep for a while.
As I already wrote: This *** was no different in that he had to face a Sankhara (using Goenkaji's terminology) of craving - as you yours of aversion. - You've been subtler then - but to rave about it for years I don't consider particular enlightened. I would have been really better you punched him then and there, instead of still punching yourself until today.
I would not think it foresighted for me - to lie to be able to meditate in Goenka courses. 'Right Intention' comes right after 'Right View' and one really forms one's realities with it. - Once you wrote, your situation with the 'Goenksters' was kind of lightweight by comparison to mine. I start to think it possible to be the other way round: After all, my opinions didn't keep me away from practicing 1 year in such retreats, and 2 1/2 further on my own!
And such really helped me not to worry anymore about 'taking it out in the traffic'. But I am sure, you will find the right amount of water just in time for the rice to become tasty again. Many good wishes